Understanding Marketing Through Time, Expertise, and Interest

Having a true understanding of your target customer is the first step in building an effective marketing plan.

How are they spending their time? Are they able to use the time they have to focus on their area of expertise? And do they have an interest in doing even better work?

Come to think of it, we could ask these same questions of ourselves. It’s a full-circle approach that leads to better clarity about our target audience, enabling a more robust and focused marketing strategy.

In this episode, Josh Thomas, Director of Marketing at Outbound Engine, shares how these three pillars inform their marketing strategy while also serving as the marketing solution for the customers.

Listen in as Josh breaks down the dichotomy of marketing Outbound Engine’s marketing software solution.

Read The Transcript
Brian Massey: I consider myself a software guy, bachelor of science and computer science. I wrote my own analytics package in 2003 which was thankfully replaced by Google analytics in 2005 I still write scripts for my own data analysis. In the tech world. We distinguish between software guys and gals and hardware guys and gals. Mark Zuckerberg is a software guy. Apple’s Steve Wasniak is a hardware guy. Yes, I know Steve has written a lot of code in his day, but he’s undoubtedly a hardware guy and when there’s something that needs to be done around the house or to my car, my first thought is, I’m a software guy. This is a hardware problem. Now my father is clearly a hardware guy. He’s handy. He fixes things, he builds things. So when it came to change the kitchen sink faucet in my house, I called dad because as a software guy, I would just start trying things to understand the obstacles. This can be an expensive approach for a hardware problem. Now hang in there, there’s a point in this. So I called dad and he came over. He told me what to do, but I pretty much knew all of that. However, Dad handed me a tool that I could never have imagined existed. It’s called a basin wrench and it made all the difference.

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Josh Thomas: So are you more allowing the individual or the team to spend their time, the things that they’re good at or that they want to spend their time on For me. That’s one where when you look at whether it’s the words that you say or the user experience that you provide or you know really the belief that you’re trying to align with and your buyer, your customer’s mind, you really have to make sure that you’re understanding how they spend their time and you know, does this fit within that

Brian Massey: there is no way squeezed under that sink that I ever would have gotten the old and crusted bolts off that old faucet without the basin wrench. The YouTube videos I watched didn’t mention it. Imagine a Raptor claw attached to the end of a long rod with a handle at the bottom. You know I even had to Google faucet tool to find out what this thing was called. Here’s a picture of it in the show notes. Now I’m certain that I would have given up without this. What’s the moral of the story Tools plus experience. I get pitched marketing tools all the time. Pop-up tools, data tools, visualization tools, email tools, analysis tools, you name it. How can I know which tools are indispensable basin wrenches in all of this noise. That is the question I had in mind when I invited Josh Thomas onto my podcast. Josh is with Outbound Engine. They sell the basin wrench of digital marketing for small businesses. They sell both the tools and the done for you services to the kind of people who actually use basin wrenches on a daily basis. Most of us see our products and services as basin wrenches, indispensable, but only to those people who have the proverbial faucet to change. So how does Outbound Engine convince hardware guys and gals, the plumbers and HVHC people that they sell to to invest in a soft problem like digital marketing Well, let’s listen and find out.

Commercial: (Commercial Break)

Josh Thomas: So when I, graduated from college, many, many years ago, it was really, I didn’t know exactly where I wanted to go. I knew I had interests, and a lot of different areas. And so I found myself really diving into, the marketing area where it gave me the most exposure to being able to learn and do a lot of things, quickly.

Brian Massey: What were those areas of interest that the various areas of interest music Was it art Was it gaming I don’t know.

Josh Thomas: For me it was, it was the ability. So I actually don’t come from a formal marketing background, like I don’t have a marketing degree or anything, but for me, a lot of my background was actually in government economics. And so it was the ability to really rationalize numbers and you know, see how they fit within, you know, what you’re trying to accomplish. whether it’s at a micro level, within, say a business or at a macro level, let’s say the United States of America. But then at the same time as well after the government side of things, it was really being able to rationalize big data sets, big goals and objectives and, doing so in a way that really required a depth of expertise and given arrogance. And so, and that obviously lend itself to a lot of writing and being persuasive and trying to, you know, shape these big ideas that you’re trying to accomplish.

Josh Thomas: And I found that marketing really carried itself well to both of those. demand generation at the time was a growing area of expertise within marketing. and we see the term was, and it had originally been direct response and performance marketing, things like that. But demand generation was really starting to take hold as this really numbers based approach to solving, you know, business growth objectives and at the same time being able to do so in a way that was really persuasive in moving ideas, and creating categories if you will. So it was a really interesting way to get a lot of exposure there. My background isn’t so much in the design side of things, but it’s more in the copywriting and the persuasion elements as well as taking a more metrics-based approach to how we want to solve. Whether it’s, you know, how do we get more customers, how do we, you know, want to grow our business or how do we grow it in a more healthy way to make sure that our customers that we do have are staying with us and seeing value over time. Perhaps even seeing additional value through, you know, additional services or products.

Brian Massey: No, that’s a, it’s kind of an interesting turn there. So we start off in a world where we take datasets, economic data sets and we sit in a cubicle somewhere and we push them through a machine and we see how many correlations we think might be causal and remove hidden variables and things like that, and then suddenly you are into persuasion and copywriting, which sounds to me like a completely different set of skills and abilities. Was there a, was there a moment that shifted you that way or are you just a a left hemisphere right hemisphere kind of a guy

Josh Thomas: I don’t know that I, I’m anything special, but what I’d say is that some of these things I just tend to frankly find the things that seem easier to me and I start to gravitate towards those that perhaps that’s the bar psychology side of this as well, but as we look at, at the end of the day, if a lot of this comes down to numbers and business growth often often does, then the ability to influence that can be done in, I would say a couple of different ways. Design and user experience is certainly part of that. And I think that’s where conversion optimization has really lent itself. That’s where folks tend to lean on. initially I’ve seen, but at the same time, you know, the ability to move those numbers really comes from the ability to help, whether it’s a prospect or a customer, understand where they are today and really where they want to go. And the best way that I found to do that is through words.

Brian Massey: Words are powerful. We love testing the words. It’s also the hardest thing to test because they’re so mushy and malleable and changeable. And we will get into that. But you said something interesting that, I, I think is important for the audience here and that is your interest lies. And whenever we get hit with a, a pitch for a tool or we see an opportunity to do something, interest is one of those things that either will or won’t take us in that direction. And I, I’ve always thought that this was really important from a testing standpoint or a research standpoint of what we want of course is for everyone in marketing to become experimenters. But not everyone is going to dive into AB testing. Not everyone’s going to be diving into analytics. Not everyone is going to be into revving copy and images to see what works best. So we’re going to plug in at our area of interest. You have a model that you use ostensibly to talk about your product and how it saves a marketing department in a business time. But I think it’s also a good metaphor for the things that get in the way of evaluating new businesses. You want to talk a little bit about that for me?

Josh Thomas: Sure, yeah. So when we talk about, we’ve built a product here, a solution set, if you will, that’s really been built around buyer and prospect feedback as well as buyer and prospect objections. And so one of the things that every solution, every software that you see or really anything that you want to buy, there’s this idea of time and what keeps you from doing that. And you know, when I look at, for example, how I spend my time, it really gravitates towards either the things that I’m good at or the things that I’m required to solve for, whether it’s in my professional or personal life. And so as we start to look then at how we’ve built a solution that’s really solving for that, it’s really important for us to make sure that we understand how people spend their time today. And you can either how they spend time and you can spend a lot of time and energy trying to convince somebody to change how they spend their time. But if the natural inclination of how people spend their time is because either they have to or because they want to spend it, how they are right now, whether it’s a habit or it’s just how they run their day to day, you know, personal and professional lives.

Brian Massey: I think that’s a huge part of it. We may have an interest in an expertise in one area, but something in the organization is dragging us, rewarding us for other things like data for, we’re going to start introducing data-driven decisions in the marketing. There’s probably a an executive layer above us or the management layer above us that is like, well let’s keep doing it the way we’re doing it. Cause it’s working sort of a thing.

Josh Thomas: Yeah, it’s either working or it’s easier. It’s easier because it’s, and you also have a higher degree of competence. So when you look at how you spend your time all of a sudden, then you need to make sure whether you’re a tool or really any of solution that’s out there that you can best fit within how the individual or the team rather spends their time. Are you fighting, you know, currency. You’re trying to change that behavior. Oftentimes that can really be challenging, but are you more allowing the individual or the team to spend their time and the things that they’re good at or that they want to spend their time on For me. That’s one where when you look at whether it’s the words that you say or the user experience that you provide or you know, really the belief that you’re trying to align with and your buyer, your customer’s mind, you, you really have to make sure that you’re understanding how they spend their time and you know, does this fit within that

Josh Thomas: You know, one of the things that I, working with sales professionals in the past, I’ve also been, as you know, really making sure that you ask the question, is this a line item on your current budget Because how you spend your, your money is also how you’re focused in terms of your time and really where you want your team’s time to be spent. And so if you’re not on someone’s line item, all of a sudden you’ve got to take the additional legwork to go and convince them that this thing is even worth it in the first place. They have to become aware of the problem before they become aware of the solution. Otherwise you’re spending a lot of time trying to convince someone of a particular need without their belief themselves that either their belief themselves that’s important or they may believe it’s important, but it’s just like going to the gym.

Josh Thomas: No one equates going to the gym with smoking cigarettes. everyone generally understands that, Hey, if you, a gym is aligned to this idea of healthy lifestyle, but not necessarily everyone goes because they may not have the time because of either children or you know, their business lives or just because they have other interests. That’s something where you want to just make sure that time is really part of the conversation because everyone has grandiose ideas. I would say for some solutions out there on how the time is actually spent. But if you were to look at it and see how their priorities lie, it may often sometimes be a bit different.

Brian Massey: Yeah. And let’s, let’s bring, let’s bring that back. cause I think you hit on something interesting. If I was to look at the budget for my marketing department and see where I was spending it, I think that that would be an of, not just logical decisions about the best place to put your money, but about the culture of that organization. So how much am I spending on website development We see when a website is being redesigned. Something like 70 or 80% of the money goes to the design from the look, the field, the user experience, which are very important and the smaller portion is spent on copywriters and image development and the things that we would put into a persuasive bucket. And I think that says something about the design rather than marketing department that’s doing that. How much am I putting into ads

Brian Massey: How much am I putting into landing pages How much am I putting into search optimization and how much am I putting into, calls to action lead magnets that we would call them to respond to those sorts of things. But your model has three pretty distinct pieces. It, is that the time, do we have the time to, do we want, do we have the expertise, do we really know how to do this well and I, you know, there’s a question of quality that I want to address. It might go into that bucket. So time, expertise and then interest and I think interest is this cultural piece of it. Would you agree with that

Josh Thomas: I would, I would say whether you’re a marketing department or you’re an interprofessional, say a real estate agent or financial advisor that’s really building their own book of business. A lot of it comes down to do you have an interest in doing this In many cases, you know some of the best folks that are focused on selling for example are not necessarily the best marketers or the best marketing departments that were built for a certain go to market model or a certain, you know, objective for that particular team. are not necessarily best focus for a conversion oriented testing oriented environment. So as you were to look at interest, I think it’s really important to make sure you understand like that. I always tell my team to understand rather that it’s not only just do you have the interest in doing it, but do you have the interest in doing it well and doing it to a certain capability with a certain understanding of what performance you want to see out of that.

Josh Thomas: So when we, the model that we tend to use ourselves, but also with a lot of our clients, we work with a lot of folks that are professional sellers because they’re an independent professional or small business owner. Small business owner often is a professional sales person under a different, job title in many cases. And with that, you know, we’re often speaking with them just around, you know, you got into this to work on your business to grow your business, not necessarily to work in your business and to perform the functions necessary, for example, in the marketing side. And that’s okay. You know, we find often that the folks that are really great sellers are not often the best marketers and we don’t try to convert you often into the best market, but rather to be the best person to take advantage of the great marketing that’s available out there and some more promoting teams.

Brian Massey: Yeah. Let me put you on the spot a little bit then and I’m happy to do the same for me. If you were to look at the outbound engine is spending its marketing dollars, it’s effort to bring in and persuade new customers. I think about the budget. What does it say about the culture of outbound engine Where do you tend to invest your dollars You don’t have to give me any numbers. I’m just, I just want to get a picture of the landscape.

Josh Thomas: Sure. We, we invest our dollars in a couple of different areas. The first and foremost is making sure that we’ve got a great brand experience that’s represented through clear, concise communications about the value that we provide in the outcomes that we drive.

Brian Massey: What are the channels that you communicate those through

Josh Thomas: So we do that through our website. We do that through social advertising. We do that through organic, you know, content development. And we do that through T mint mentioned earlier. a focus on copywriting and design for everything from emails, landing pages, you know, a higher volume of those to make sure that they’re tailored and personalized to the audience that we’re reaching out to. But then also too, and this is part of a growing practice here at the organization, is really a focus on testing optimization. You know, one of the things that I tend to find is when you’re new or even not new, you’ve been doing it for years, cause you can also pop and get trapped in your own belief. That means is this idea that you’re probably 70%, right You’re probably 20% kind of close, kind of not, and then you’re 10% flat out wrong.

Josh Thomas: and that can vary depending on, you know, certain audiences or certain products that you have. And so if you, if you take that mindset of, you know, you’re, you’re probably pretty close, more often than not, but you’re not necessarily dead on, well then it makes most sense to really invest in, you know, delivering a high volume of campaigns and content, emails and landing pages to put out there so that you have the right headlines, the right copy to make sure that it’s really aligned to the buyer’s interest and what they’re looking to accomplish. So we spend a lot of time and energy on that and we also have a lot of focus area here on ensuring that our customers can consistently see the value after they, you know, make the decision to move forward with us. And so customer marketing is a big focus area for us to make sure that we’re enabling them to take the right steps forward on behalf of, you know, the marketing that we’re doing with them.

Brian Massey: I spend a fair amount of your budget on making sure that your existing customers are being successful with the product. Correct. And do you see that as a churn problem or is that something more cultural

Josh Thomas: So it’s more cultural for us. It’s an area where we genuinely believe that small businesses are best suited to focus on the areas of their expertise. we feel like we’re a partner in, you know, amplifying their expertise and really driving value to drive their growth. And it’s just part of how we view the world. We really have, we have a red carpet program here that’s really focused on ensuring that our customers really see the value of our product immediately as quickly as possible in terms of being able to stay top of mind with their audiences. And with that we want to make sure that they are seeing that though you as fast as possible. But then at the same time too, we just feel it’s our responsibility is a marketing and as a partner with all these customers, they’re seeing not only the value but we also recognize that their growth is really dependent on, you know, great marketing, free marketing and in marketing and doing that in a way where they can understand every step of the process is critical for us.

Brian Massey: Just so everybody understands the context cause we haven’t done an IVD into it yet, but you offer a platform as well as the services that create the content that drive that platform. Now you said something interesting. You said that you spend a fair amount of money on social ads. Does that mean that you don’t spend that much on search ads or what’s the deal there

Josh Thomas: We tend to look more on the social advertising side. It gives us better targeting abilities, for us. I mentioned earlier the testing culture that we built and we can see we continue to build is this idea that by better targeting we can be more prescriptive with our communications so that when we’re talking to say a plumber, we’re making sure that we’re speaking in their language, not necessarily in our language. And we’re always pretty close. But at the same time too, by bringing that testing monitoring, we recognize that we won’t always have it perfect. You know, certain audiences tend to have certain preferences and so it’s just about making sure that we’ve got a lot of different ad sets out there that tends to be a bit easier when it comes to social advertising given the targeting capabilities.

Brian Massey: I see, I see. Well, you know, if I was to play the game and say, where do we spend most of our time now Most of my time, or the largest percentage of my time is traveling places to speak and actually generating this podcast is a fairly significant use of my time. And so we do not spend a lot of time, we don’t spend any time on outbound marketing. We’re not making cold calls, we’re not calling, prospects, from shows and things like that. And I think culturally it says, quite a bit about us. And number one, I like to hear myself speak as clearly what’s being, what’s being communicated. And number two, we want people to come to us when they’ve kind of made the decision rather than to persuade them. There are some flaws with that model that that we grapple with, but we have to be very honest at are our marketing span reflects the culture of the company.

Brian Massey: I think that’s an interesting exercise for, for anyone to do. And we’ve talked about, we’ve talked about interest. Time is one of those things that’s more valuable than the money and there’s probably another fingerprint that we could overlay on, on our, on our little game here that says, Hey, where are we spending our time The truth is we don’t really know that it’s easier to track where we’re spending our money than where we’re spending our time. And we touched on expertise, which has this quality issue wrapped around it. And I want to dive into that because as we said, your business is about providing the content as well. It seems really difficult to get good at developing content for a variety of industries. Now we test our way to the answers. So we collect the data that tells us don’t have to be experts when we come in. Do you take a similar approach or how do you handle delivering high quality ads, high quality content as a part of your service in an industry that you might be new to?

Josh Thomas: Absolutely. So when we look at that, it’s really a focus area for us. We have a whole team that’s really built around making sure that we have high quality relevant, you know, really beautiful content that’s allows the small business owner to stand out and really look great in their local market. To do that since we have, we have over 10,000 customers and what that allows us to do is really make sure that we can start to use that as an opportunity to see what’s working best, what’s not. You don’t know for all testing platform. The ability to look at that and say, now we can sort of see what’s working and what’s not. Because we do see so many different iterations. We can see what engagement is, what campaigns or content are driving engagements. We can make sure that we’re taking those lessons learned and incorporating them more and more over time.

Josh Thomas: And we do that through, whether it’s the email newsletters that we support or the social advertising that we do on our customer’s behalf, it gives us just more and more opportunities for us to learn and see what works best. At the same time, you know, our marketing team internally works closely with that team as well to make sure that we’re sharing what works best in particular industries or categories and making sure that again, like our overall focus as an organization is ensuring that small business owners and independent professionals look great in their local market. So in order to do that, it’s really a company culture focus just to take all the lessons learned that we take from our conversations in the sales side or with our customer support teams through our marketing efforts, through the team that really builds this out and you know, incorporating all of those findings to make sure that we’re putting out the most relevant, really beautiful content that allows the individual to stand out.

Brian Massey: Beautiful content. You don’t hear words like beautiful very much when people are talking about tools. Let me put you on the spot a little bit though. So I’m always surprised at businesses cloud, businesses like yours that aren’t aggregating data and learning from it. and I think one of the reasons is that, they might, they think it might hurt them. So if I am, you mentioned a plumber, if I’m a plumber and I come and work with you, what makes me certain that you’re not going to take what you’ve learned from me and apply it to my competitor who’s down the street, who also happens to use your tool Do you address that at all with your customers

Josh Thomas: So we do it in a couple of different ways. I’d say first and foremost, you know, one of the things tactically that we do is we just ensure that no two members of a given audience are seeing the same content. If we did have two plumbers, for example, in this case, but I’d also say to ’em, not to get too deep in the mindset, but I think that brings a bit of a fixed mindset. And at the end of the day, what it’s really important to do is make sure that you look relevant as a expert in your field. And this right here takes a lot of that off your plate. And often what we’re doing as well is it’s helping this who may

Brian Massey: or may not be actively doing marketing work, doing either consistent marketing or great marketing, taking it off their hands and really then serving those insights that come from the campaigns that we run on their behalf. And we really help them at that point with followup templates through our mobile application, which includes these insights and the followups to really move forward, you know, in the most appropriate way and the most professional way. I would say it’s more about taking what currently may not may or not even be done or may or may not be done well and amplifying that. So I don’t necessarily look at it. I think it’s looking at it from a bit of a fixed versus growth mindset. I think a lot of folks and we end up talking with them. It’s about amplifying what they’re doing, making sure that they can stand out versus you know, the individual that, you know, maybe it’s a year into the field and you know, has perhaps better marketing.

Brian Massey: You know, our job is to make sure that the 15, 20 year professional can really stand out against them and really demonstrate their expertise themselves through the skills that they offer. So as with all marketing, it’s, it’s while, the guy down the street might learn a few tips or tricks through the process. It’s going to be my business, my services, my products, my ability to deliver them, my ability to support them, that’s going to get amplified. And, I love this because I think this is really true across the boards that marketing departments who are struggling are putting money behind the things that they don’t do well. And maybe we’re circling back to our time, interest and expertise a model on this. So let me ask you this. I’m on Facebook. You guys really do focus on local and small businesses that, am I understanding that correctly

Brian Massey: Correct Yes. So let’s say that I am this, this plumber, I’m on Facebook and I say a digital marketing done for you, for, plumbing companies. And this is interesting. I’m going to click through and tell me how you think I should apply time, interest and expertise in evaluating whether I should, go ahead and fill out the form on that landing page and get a demo or, or not, or if you want to take it through to pass the demo. But how would I apply this as a, as a business owner, time, interest and expertise to one of your offers.

Josh Thomas: Sure. So let’s start with time. So when we make sure that we have all our communications, whether it’s through the ad set, the email driving to Atlanta page or our website, we really want to make sure that we’re highlighting that your time is valuable. You know, if you’re a small business owner, you don’t have time to do every possible thing within your organization. Frankly, I think that’s true for owners across all company sizes or independent professionals across all company sizes, but it’s especially true in small business side. You’re just not able to do everything for your business and do it effectively, efficiently and as well as in many cases, you know, proven experts in that given field and so we really want to make sure though that we recognize like at the same time, despite all of that, like you do have quite a bit of skill in a lot of different areas.

Josh Thomas: Let’s say the plumber in this case and helping them recognize their time is valuable. It’s easy. In some of these cases, for example, like a plumber where you have an hourly rate where you can start to provide some of that detail of what’s an hour worth to you. You, you generally have an idea of what your billable rate tends to look like. But we want to make sure that we’re really explaining what that looks like and making sure that you’re very clear on what that ends up being. Because one of the things that, especially if you’re a great small business owner, at many times you’ll find, Hey, every time you want to sit down and write that newsletter, that email to give and set up your prospects or your existing book of business, the ability to go and put that together will always get dropped when someone walks in the front door and says, I’d love to have a conversation with you about buying something. And so with that, your time is valuable, but at the same time you can’t do everything. And so we want to make sure we really address that in the piece.

Brian Massey: And do we really know though, cause I mean I value my time at, you can’t buy me by the hour, but I value my time just as a back of the napkin at $1,000 an hour. So I’m going to spend an hour on something. I would hope to get more, you know, $2,000 worth of value out of it. Do plumbers and car dealers and HVHC experts really know the value of a time at a, at a management level.

Josh Thomas: So not always. I would say some do. The folks that are more operationally minded tend to but not always. And that’s where it’s really incumbent on us in the both in the marketing and sales side of things to make sure that they recognize the value. at the end of the day, a lot of our customers stay with us for a very long time and with that, because they recognize that time is valuable and they recognize the importance of marketing if they understand those two truths. Like it’s obviously in many cases a good fit to work with us. And at that point then too, we also help, we also find that when we are speaking with some of our customers, they start to recognize the value of their time, perhaps better, efficiently spend versus trying to do all things to all people. And so I think it’s more of just part of our job here in the marketing department is ensuring that we drive that awareness of look, your time is valuable. However the market says that you need to be spending more time on great marketing and to fill that gap, we really need to make sure that you’ve got the right solution. And oftentimes that solution might be us

Brian Massey: as a plumber. When we talk about interest then isn’t my interest just getting more customers or is there, are there different places to plug in that might reflect my personal interest or my cultural interest

Josh Thomas: So let me tackle that from two different angles. I’d say the first side of that is your interest is not only in getting new customers but to get, in many cases, repeat customers. And you’re not often wishing if you’re a plumber that someone’s, you know, let’s say st breaks down again in a month and a half, but you want to make sure that when something does happen that you’re top of mind. So it’s not only Jeff, how do you get new people in the door I think that’s you know, part of the equation or perhaps the bigger part of the equation is how do you maximize network that you have this sphere of influence that it’ll sometimes we call it, how do you maximize that so that you generate the referrals and repeat business that are more often than not the best leads you can get. It’s one thing to spend all your time.

Josh Thomas: To your point on the second side of this culturally where your time is personal time is spent. A lot of folks that we talked to at the initial stage of the conversation feel out of control of their own business. They feel they’re often chasing, they spending their time chasing, you know, new leads or something like that. And these are folks that have never heard of you, that are often in many cases provided to you. If you go through additional services to get some of these leads, they’re going in there talking to four other people and you end up in a conversation around price not value. And in many cases, a lot of our customers are really the 15 or 20 year professionals that are really fantastic at their job. But if you’re going and chasing cold, you know, conversations that you don’t have that relationship already built in or if you don’t have it really done in a way that you control the narrative perhaps through your own social advertising, all of a sudden, then you’re really rendered to speaking specifically to cost versus value. And so we want to make sure that our customers are always having the right conversations that help them demonstrate that value. And at the same time it really can control more of their day. So they spend less time chasing some of these colder conversations because they haven’t best stayed in touch with their existing network. And they can spend more time either growing their business or spend time with their family,

Brian Massey: spend time with the family. Now that’s an interest. And then of course, expertise. You know, when, when I get one of these pitches through an ad or through an email, it’s usually about the expertise. We can do it better, we do it faster, we can do it easier. And you guys bring both the, the tools that manage things as well as the, the content, any more to add to that

Josh Thomas: No, I think I’m really at the end of the day, like this is where we want to enable folks to be their best selves. And that doesn’t always mean if you’re an indicative professional or if you’re a marketer that you’re great at everything, even in marketing. And so one of the things that we find is our job in many cases is really a to remove the burden as solution or a day to day activity that these individuals recognize the value and they recognize the need in but it’s not necessarily their depth of expertise and the time going back to that side of things that it would take to become expert would pull away from the things that are good at today that often are required to run the business. Building relationships at the closing business. Those areas are really probably more important when it comes to small business owner. If you have the marketing engine running and that’s at the end of the day what we want to make sure that we are doing on behalf of our customers.

Commercial: (Commercial Break)

Brian Massey: When you get back to the office, think about this time expertise, interest. I like this simple model. These are the things that influence whether your customers will solve a problem themselves or buy a solution to fix it. A solution like yours, when time is tight, prospects gravitate to those problems in which they have expertise, where they have confidence, things are done the way they’ve always been done, and thus they’re done relatively quickly. When time loosens, however, our prospects can gravitate to tasks that feed their interest or their expertise. These are the problems that needed solving and now that time is available, they get their attention. Now those with an expertise spent and expertise in the solution, but little interest, they’re looking for tools to make things easier. The ROI is what they’re looking for. Those with interest, but little expertise are looking for experts. They’re looking for the expertise and the tools to solve the problem. Someone with interest, expertise and time are likely to do it themselves to solve the problem internally. So what are you doing to feed interest or feed expertise to demonstrate ROI to experts and to demonstrate competence to those who are interested The two are quite different. I’ve provided some drawings in the show notes on conversion sciences.com to show what I think this model looks like and how you can make decisions with these three simple indices. Now go science!

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